Thread: Philadelphia

The bottom line is that it all has to do with economics. Unfortunately, the ships they put in Philadelphia were, for the most part, smaller older ships that passengers did not like and prices were high. For example, I had many clients that cruised on the NCL Majesty. Every one of them complained about that ship, even those who were die hard NCL cruisers. Word got around that it was not an enjoyable cruise and was overpriced. Due to a lack of interest, they pulled the ship out of there.

The same thing happened in Norfolk. There were several ships sailing out of there on a regular basis and now there is only one doing a few cruises. And this after the city and the State spent alot of money to build a new cruise terminal.

Part of the problem is that these ports don't draw alot of passengers during cold months, so the cruise lines only assign ships there for part of the year. How do the local authorities support a terminal when it's only been used part time?

Baltimore was in the same boat - no pun intended. However, they did not spend alot of money revamping their cruise port and yet now we have 2 ships sailing out of there year-round and another one doing it part-time. It'll be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next year or so to see if it can support two year-round ships. Part of the problem is that it takes about 1-1/2 days to get to warm weather/water, so on a 7-night cruise in the middle of Winter, they will spend 3 nights getting to and coming back from warm weather. And since there is relatively high demand and low supply, the prices are considerably higher than other options.

I had one client who wanted to do a 5-night cruise to Bermuda out of Baltimore. He couldn't believe the pricing I was providing, so I gave him another option; do a 7-night cruise out of Florida with airfare for the same price. Gee, now there's a no-brainier!

Baltimore & Philadelphia are very similar in that the size of ships are limited due to the bridges they must cross under. Unfortunately, all newer ships are too big to go under the bridges, so the smaller older ships are the only options available.

Until someone comes up with a way to make the smaller ships more desirable and cost effective, it's a problem both cities will have to endure.

Pete

Originally Posted by Cruise Planner

The bottom line is that it all has to do with economics. Unfortunately, the ships they put in Philadelphia were, for the most part, smaller older ships that passengers did not like and prices were high. For example, I had many clients that cruised on the NCL Majesty. Every one of them complained about that ship, even those who were die hard NCL cruisers. Word got around that it was not an enjoyable cruise and was overpriced. Due to a lack of interest, they pulled the ship out of there.

The same thing happened in Norfolk. There were several ships sailing out of there on a regular basis and now there is only one doing a few cruises. And this after the city and the State spent alot of money to build a new cruise terminal.

Part of the problem is that these ports don't draw alot of passengers during cold months, so the cruise lines only assign ships there for part of the year. How do the local authorities support a terminal when it's only been used part time?

Baltimore was in the same boat - no pun intended. However, they did not spend alot of money revamping their cruise port and yet now we have 2 ships sailing out of there year-round and another one doing it part-time. It'll be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next year or so to see if it can support two year-round ships. Part of the problem is that it takes about 1-1/2 days to get to warm weather/water, so on a 7-night cruise in the middle of Winter, they will spend 3 nights getting to and coming back from warm weather. And since there is relatively high demand and low supply, the prices are considerably higher than other options.

I had one client who wanted to do a 5-night cruise to Bermuda out of Baltimore. He couldn't believe the pricing I was providing, so I gave him another option; do a 7-night cruise out of Florida with airfare for the same price. Gee, now there's a no-brainier!

Baltimore & Philadelphia are very similar in that the size of ships are limited due to the bridges they must cross under. Unfortunately, all newer ships are too big to go under the bridges, so the smaller older ships are the only options available.

Until someone comes up with a way to make the smaller ships more desirable and cost effective, it's a problem both cities will have to endure.

Pete

Yeah the thing I don't understand is how Baltimore has taken off. If weather is a large factor in this, how can they do year-round cruises? And they have a lot of the same problems Philadelphia has (bridge clearance and cruising time to get the ocean being some of the biggest), so it just doesn't make sense to me. This is why I feel it's the city's fault moreso than the cruise lines.

The two cities were in a similar situation in terms of the cruise industry 5 or 6 years ago, with each having about 30 cruises per year. Their geographical location and their limitations are also very similar. However, Baltimore will soon have over 100 cruises per year, and Philadelphia has been reduced to 2 or 3 (and those aren't with a mass market line). With such similarities and with the number of cruises for each port moving in such opposite directions, it seems something else is at play here. My guess is the city or DRPA drove the cruise lines out, and in some cases didn't try to entice them in the first place.

How do winter cruises out of Baltimore sell for you? Of course, Baltimore doesn't exactly have old ships like Philadelphia used to get, so I don't think the reviews would be quite as bad.

Another question for you: in your opinion, if Philadelphia were given a not-so-old, mid-sized ship (think similar to Carnival's Pride or RCCL's Enchantment out of Baltimore), would it get better reviews or sell better than previous Philadelphia cruises?

I sold relatively few cruises last Winter - mainly due to the fact the Carnival Pride is only doing 7-night cruises to the Bahamas and, as I mentioned, it takes quite a while to get down to warm weather and back. It'll really be interesting to see how the Enchantment does this Winter with their 9-night itinerary. Problem there is that most people only want to take a week off.

I'm waiting to see how all of this is going to play out; can we support two full-time ships? How will prices be affected? Will they change the itineraries to keep them interesting?

Also, as I stated, Baltimore and Philadelphia are very similar when you look at proximity to major metropolitan areas, having to deal with low bridges, and taking so long to transit the Chesapeake Bay. What I don't understand is that Philly was willing to put forth the money to upgrade their facility, while the Governor of Maryland tried to get the State to commit money to upgrade the Baltimore facility and was turned down. So Baltimore moved the cruise terminal from one dock to another to make it an easier access, but they did not spend hardly any money and the terminal is basically a warehouse. Yet they were still able to attract more cruise ships. Don't know the answer as to how that seemed to work, unless it had something to do with how much the ports are charging the cruise lines to dock there.

But your question about whether it would make a difference if Philly attracted newer and better ships - I honestly have no idea if that would work or not, but my feeling is it probably would not. The main reason I say this is that when you look at ships, itineraries, and pricing, there are many more options available out of New York and the prices are better. I could be wrong, but I tend to think people are more willing to drive 1-1/2 hours from Philly to Bayonne, NJ or 2 hours to NYC to get on newer bigger ships with better pricing, than they are to drive 30 minutes to a port that has smaller older ships with higher pricing. I say this because I've sold alot more cruises to those in the DC area out of NY area than out of Philly. And I would say that I sell about 50/50 between those choosing Baltimore & NY, but the majority of our clients in the DC area still choose sailing out of Florida.

Pete

Originally Posted by Cruise Planner

What I don't understand is that Philly was willing to put forth the money to upgrade their facility, while the Governor of Maryland tried to get the State to commit money to upgrade the Baltimore facility and was turned down. So Baltimore moved the cruise terminal from one dock to another to make it an easier access, but they did not spend hardly any money and the terminal is basically a warehouse. Yet they were still able to attract more cruise ships. Don't know the answer as to how that seemed to work, unless it had something to do with how much the ports are charging the cruise lines to dock there.

That's my main question too. Philadelphia seemed to show more interest early on, yet Baltimore got the ships. I know the Baltimore terminal is slightly larger than the one in Philly (60k vs. 55k square feet). That might've played a role. Or as you said, it was cheaper for the cruise lines to go to Baltimore.

However, I agree with your point about itineraries and price. Why pay that much to go to the Bahamas when you could pay less and go to better ports out of Florida, or on bigger/newer ships out of NYC? That seems like a good argument to me. But then it comes back to the question: why Baltimore? That port has limited itineraries and higher prices.

Well I guess we can go in circles with this until the cows come home. Unless we were to get a definitive answer from the cruise lines (which won't happen unfortunately), we'll probably never know the reasons for pulling out of Philadelphia or making Baltimore a big port.

I figured I'd post this here instead of starting a new thread.

With all the reforms heading toward the DRPA, do you think this might be turning point for the Philadelphia cruise terminal?

I've been following this whole controversy, and there has been little mentioned about the cruise terminal. The only times it was mentioned specifically was when it was reported that John Havers (the guy who left the IOU note in the safe after taking toll money) was transferred from director of the Commodore Barry Bridge to the cruise terminal. Of course the media always points out when they mention the cruise terminal that the cruise industry has dried up.

Anyway, some of the DRPA executives wrote an Op-ed piece today. This point stuck out to me:

In 1992, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, through their legislatures and with the approval of Congress and the President, directed that the DRPA become a regional economic development authority in addition to caring for our bridges and PATCO, hence the investment in a number of projects in the region including the Convention Center, New Jersey Aquarium, Philadelphia Navy Yard [including the cruise terminal] shipbuilding providing thousands of jobs to South Jersey and Philadelphia, the Kimmel Center, RiverSharks Baseball, Citizens Bank Park, home of the Phillies, to name a few. Through the years there have been discussions about the merit of DRPA’s participation in economic development and it has been widely reported in the press. The Board of the DRPA has voted to end the practice.

So does this mean the DRPA is going to give up the cruise terminal? If so, who will take it over? If they are going to give it up, do you think whoever takes it over will do more work to get the cruise lines back? Either way, it seems to make more sense to me to raise money by bringing the cruise lines in rather than raising tolls. Doesn't anyone at the DRPA realize this? Maybe they do, but they can't get the cruise lines back.

What does everyone else in the area think about what's going on? Any renewed hope for the cruise terminal and the city's cruise industry?

It's pretty disappointing to hear about the DRPA ending its lease on the cruise terminal. I just hope it falls into the right hands. Someone who will keep it as a cruise terminal and will market it heavily to the cruise lines. The talk right now is that Philadelphia's cruise terminal will be bought by Urban Outfitters and turned into a warehouse. What a disgrace! It's a shame the DRPA dropped the ball big time when the cruise lines were looking for a new port in the Northeast a few years ago. Philadelphia, America's birth place, deserves better than this.

Originally Posted by DarkWarriorXII

It's pretty disappointing to hear about the DRPA ending its lease on the cruise terminal. I just hope it falls into the right hands. Someone who will keep it as a cruise terminal and will market it heavily to the cruise lines. The talk right now is that Philadelphia's cruise terminal will be bought by Urban Outfitters and turned into a warehouse. What a disgrace! It's a shame the DRPA dropped the ball big time when the cruise lines were looking for a new port in the Northeast a few years ago. Philadelphia, America's birth place, deserves better than this.

Im sad to say it look like the Philadelphia Cruise terminal will be closing. They will keep it open to honor the two small ship cruises that will be originating from Philadelphia on the American Spirit - 100 passengers per voyage. Not much to hold out hope on.


FMI: Philly cruise terminal likely to close | Travel Weekly
The port authority in charge of Philadelphia will likely take the bold step this week of ending its relationship with cruising.

“In 2006, with a cruise calendar of 36 ships, the Philadelphia Cruise Terminal was bustling with activity,” the Delaware River Port Authority said in a statement this month. “Today, with only two cruises slated for 2011, [the DRPA] took the prudent step to end [its] role in the cruise business.”

The authority’s board will vote on the measure Wednesday.

The decision to end the cruise business is not an easy one for ports to make, even as they spend millions of dollars on cruise ports and terminals -- in some cases, for ships that never materialize.

There are several examples of ports throughout the U.S. that are making significant investments in the cruise industry, while preparing to host their lowest number of cruise vessels and passengers in a decade.

The most striking example may be down the Atlantic Coast from Philadelphia, in Norfolk, Va., where the port spent $36 million on the Half Moon cruise terminal, which has only six calls on the books for 2011.

The DRPA said that the six-hour sail up the Delaware River and the introduction of larger ships have had a negative impact on Philadelphia’s ability to attract ships.

If the measure is approved, effective Jan. 1, the DRPA will terminate its lease of the cruise terminal in the Philadelphia Navy Yard, providing an immediate savings of $627,000 in operating expenses.

In addition, the DRPA will save $18 million in capital improvements that were to be made to enhance the terminal.

At the height of its popularity, in 2005 and 2006, Philadelphia hosted 32 and 36 cruises respectively, the DRPA said, making the terminal a “valuable asset, bringing thousands of people to shop, dine, tour and stay in the Philadelphia region.”

The DRPA said that the terminal would honor the two calls slated for 2011: American Cruise Lines has two cruises departing from Philadelphia next year on the 100-passenger American Spirit.

What a disappointment! I am totally bummed

I live in the City and the people in charge of things are idiots! They fumbled the ball on this one They should have tried to attract a line like Princess since some of their older ships are smaller.